Various sources are reporting this morning that West Ham United have rejected Arsenal’s first offer for Declan Rice.
Hammers CEO David Sullivan has been waiting for the Gunners to make their first move for a week and it’s hardly a surprise we didn’t table a bid that matches his expectations. After all, that’s not how negotiations work.
There’s talk that we wanted to hand over £80 million up front with a further £10 million in add-ons. West Ham have briefed that they will only do business if a package tops £100 million; £18 million more than Arsenal’s current club-record transfer fee.
🚨 EXCL: Arsenal have made opening offer to sign Declan Rice from West Ham. Tim Lewis & Karren Brady held talks at PL AGM (though Edu + Richard Garlick leading process). Man City now actively exploring own approach for 24yo @TheAthleticFC #WHUFC #AFC #MCFC https://t.co/pAYw3zTU7t
— David Ornstein (@David_Ornstein) June 15, 2023
It’s believed Arsenal will make a second offer in the coming days.
Just to spice things up, it looks as though West Ham – or another interested party, agents perhaps? – have leaked that Manchester City are ‘actively exploring’ an offer of their own. It’s not the first time Pep Guardiola’s side have been linked with Rice but in recent weeks, it’s been Bayern Munich who’ve looked like more of a threat.
Honestly, we wouldn’t read too much into it. ‘Late twist’ narratives are ridiculously common at this time of year and the majority of the time they come to nothing.
Arsenal have been quietly confident about getting their man since January.
Do the deal Edu, £90 Million with £11 Million add-ons! COYG
I hope you’re right mate.
I have so had it with this club low-balling and penny-pinching.
If I was Arteta, I’d be going mental at Edu and Garlick.
The money is there; it’s high time this fucking club grew a fucking pair and actually started acting like Arsenal Football Club should.
Hardly penny-pinching, the first offer smashed our previous record!
If they’re confident Rice only wants us we can afford to negotiate. If we can save 10m to 15m here it can go into the Mbappe pot 😉
“If they’re confident Rice only wants us” is a big if.
That “if” is as big as a mountain. Benzema wanted to finish his career at Real Madrid a couple of weeks ago. He now is saying he wanted to live and play his football near the Mecca….of money.
Mbappe is insisting to spend his last year at PSG to do things right and be loyal. That will allow him to get half of the 200M of transfer fee avoided by Real.
Or perhaps arsenal know that Rice has made his decision on who he wants to join (and agreed personal terms) – and therefore face no real prospect of a bidding war as the player cannot be forced to go somewhere that he does not want to?
From everything we know, Rice wants to stay in London for his family, and wants to play in the Champions League (otherwise he would stay at West Ham, where he is adored, with an enormous wage increase). Notice that Ornstein, the most reliable of sources, emphasised that Arsenal have made a first offer–not that West Ham have rebuffed the offer. He’s saying; “okay, real negotiations have begun.” Please, everyone, relax.
Exactly. West Ham know he is leaving and have said this much. For a player of this calibre it is starling how few clubs are being linked let along making formal bids. This tells us most of what we need to know. Ultimately to West Ham he is a rapidly declining asset – he wants to leave and won’t sign a new deal, and they have agreed to him that he can leave. Of course they could reject all offers and force him to stay – but is a club captain who doesn’t want to be there set the kind… Read more »
I get that you are trying to be rational,
but the point is surely that we need to panic and get really stressed and we all need to hyperventilate for the next two months, until we discover that Arsenal have spent their entire transfer budget on a player who used to play for Chelsea, who is also probably the antichrist and worse still, likes Coldplay.
… and Maroon 5.
Well that’s a horrible thought
I will not have you put the Antichrist into such questionable company!!
Yeah. Hilarious.
If we miss out on Declan Rice, then let’s see you laughing again next May when City – with Rice in their ranks – win the title yet again.
Or maybe perhaps that’s what you want.
Mudryk?
What Arsenal Football Club are you on about then mate?
The one that is SUPPOSED to be challenging for the ECL and the EPL next season.
We have now left the door open for City to sign Rice and we have also withdrawn our interest in Caicedo.
What kind of Arsenal do YOU think we should be?
All you downvoters.
According to the Times Arsenal have removed their interest in Caicedo. Chelsea are now the front runners.
And according to the Telegraph, another club (probably City) will be submitting a bid for Rice in the next 24 hrs.
Don’t forget to down vote now.
I’m disappointed in regards to caciedo too – but I’ve seen a few links with Roman lavia surfacing today – probably half the cost.. What you reckon?
Yep, I’ve seen the link and as a plan b for Caicedo, I guess we could do a lot worse.
Just really disappointed regarding Caicedo; the prospect of him, Rice and Odegaard in that middle of the park would have been incredible.
But there you go. It was too good to be true after all. Fucking typical……
He is not worth that much. He is a great player, but over hyped and over priced. We should target more transfers in the Martin Odegard and Trossard price range and quality. The players are out there because Brighton have done an excellent job with recruitment and I am sure with the right ppl we can make smart choices. Just throwing 100m + for one player is not super smart unless we are planning to spend another 200-300 million.
Thank you!
Just to cheer you and your hair shirt chums up even further, we have withdrawn our interest in Caicedo.
Party on. Treat yourself.
I don’t really agree that he is overhyped or overpriced. He is worth what the market is willing to pay. He has performed to a remarkable level for an average team – the market speculates what value he could bring to a better team – my feeling is he could be a game changer for us. Perhaps there is a bargain out there that could do the same job – but we are not a Brighton who can buy cheap and speculate due to limited expectations
£10,000,001 in add ons, surely?
Edu will have to golinhada for him
Fasten your seatbelts. But I still prefer Caicedo.
Forget it pal.
Edu has withdrawn his interest.
Am I missing something? Is there really no one in Europe or south America with his same skillset? Not a proven goalscorer or creator….An athlete whose super power is interceptions and carrying the ball…..I would offer an extra 5m with 15m in add one(most of it being for winning the champions League) then ghost westham before signing the next person on our list .. probably a 20year old Brazilian that costs 10m and also named Gabriel 😀
Yes, I think you are indeed missing something. He is one of the best players in England at his position (which is less involved about scoring or creating–where we have been pretty damn good–and more about preventing goals, where we have been lacking), he is young, tall, with a lot of Prem experience, captain of his team, and a leader for his national team. We are trying to challenge to win the league–and if we do not *improve* we cannot do it.
And your suggestion is……………
Granit Xhaka
There probably is – but it will usually take a smaller team in the prem road testing them before a more established club will take them on. This of course costs money – but you could spend £17m on a talented young Belgian that is captain of a successful side and makes the Belgian squad for the first time – and attitude of the big club fan base is that they are not good enough right now – and they will therefore be criticised and chided and told they are not good enough until they are forced to go out… Read more »
£90M + £10,000,001.00 in add-ons. Deal done. It’s not matching a release clause but, that’s what they’re asking for.
A 100,000 people are probably asking this same question at the mo. But…
How can a club have detailed discussions with another club for 6 months and then submit a bid they reject without thinking?
It just seems weird. What were they talking about all this time?
Also, I think people will freak out about city. I’m a bit more chill.
We have been chatting to Declan for a long time and he is settled in London with a young family.
Pep is leaving soon and city have legal issues.
It’s a bit of a brown trouser moment, I admit. And we were all a bit naive to think we wouldn’t get any competition. But I think it will be fine.
I think we need to be chill even if they beat us to him. Shit like this can always happen.
I’m sure we will do some good business and be stronger next season either way.
It’s just click hate fake news. Last year Arsenal made an unwelcome bid of £52 million, when he then had two years remaining on his contract, but West ham refused this offer because they wanted £75 million. Do you think Arsenal would bid more than the £75 million West ham wanted last year with Rice now only having one year remains on his contract. It’s fake news!
I don’t think about the player. I trust Edu to find a suitable plan B. The issue is what this situation would represent. A club who are already dominating English and European football and have 115 ffp charges against them are able to just go out and spunk 100 million on another midfielder to add to their expensive pokemon collection…thus widening the competitive gap with everyone else. It would just feel to me like… whats the point of it all?
I agree.
But I worry about a situation where we miss Rice and Caicedo.
As regards position, age and premier league experience, there’s no one else on the market like them.
Also, it’s just a bad look given are so tacitly in love with them. And then the Mudryk u-turn will be again lamented.
Not too many teams can gazump us at this point I feel. City and Real Madrid obviously. Chelsea and United can try but we should be a more attractive destination if we are prepared to stump up the cash.
Hopefully we get one or the other, or better still both.
It doesn’t make us look good when it happens. Probably just have to put our money where our mouth is at some point tbh.
Why worry? There are thousands of footballers out there. We missed out on Mudryk and it turned out fine. Get out there and enjoy the summer and see where we are when the season starts!
I refuse to enjoy the summer and absolutely will allow this, and every transfer window, to ruin it.
Thank you!! We’re one of the best and most attractive clubs in the world, yet people are going berserk that “other clubs could overpower us in the market”. YA THINK?! How do you think fans of thousands of other clubs feel? We’re one of the few “not-run-by-suspicious-criminals” clubs that are actually able to compete. A year ago, we were all holding our breath, hoping we’d finish 4th for once. We had a brilliant season. With all those “underwhelming” signings like Ramsdale, Odegaard, et al. Go sit outside, open some nice chilly Riesling, and wait for this whole thing to blow… Read more »
Are you telling people to have some cheese with their whine?
Start worrying Johnny.
Times/Mail/Everyone Now reporting that we’ve removed our interest in Caicedo.
And a City bid for Rice incoming in the next 24hrs.
WTF is Edu up to…..?
“everyone” is trying to make gullible people click their links. If you’re not at the table, you don’t know. Remember when the papers came out once a day? We still signed players. We just didn’t get to panic every 7 seconds because some media outlet needed to sell 500.000 ads.
If rice goes to city he will probably find himself on the bench alongside Phillips. He ain’t replacing Rodri. He will join us if we just stump up the money. If we don’t he won’t. Simple’s
West Ham are taking the piss tbh, 120m is too much
They haven’t asked for £120m
They want £100m
We bid £80m – a complete waste of everyone’s time.
Various sources have said 120m but you may be right.
80m is also a waste of everybody’s time.
@Qwalitee, it seems you enjoy ‘worrying’ for a living😋!
Heh. People who think lowballing with a first bid is purely ‘Par for the Course’ and ‘nothing to worry about’ clearly have a problem understanding that lowballing might have been ok back in the day behind closed boardroom doors before the internet and Twitter – but not nowadays. Once that failed bid becomes public knowledge, then guess what – other richer clubs will start a bidding war that we cannot compete with. It happened with Mudryk and it’s now in danger of happening with Rice. I cannot understand why, yet again, Arsenal have gone in with a bid that is… Read more »
They haven’t been having detailed discussions with another club. The talks were with the player, which, while technically against the rules, is basically how most transfers get rolling.
Thanks Andrew. That does make more sense. I suppose my follow up would be why are we having detailed discussions with a player that we might not even manage to sign? I was under the impression that arsenal were piling all their resources into this transfer. I just assumed that involved discussions with WHU. This isn’t a criticism by the way. I know how smart we are. And yeah, I know the transfer window has just opened. But we’ve spent all week with the “arsenal inching closer to a deal” stories. I suppose I just didn’t realise that was just… Read more »
Johnny, we’re doing exactly the same as we did we Mudryk and Caicedo in January. The same as we did with Higuain and Benzema and Suarez and the rest.
We are a fucking joke when it comes to getting marquee signings done.
I honestly thought Edu and Co had learned their lessons……
I thought Alexis and Ozil were marquee statement signings, as well as Aubameyang.
Dude, those signings – all pre-Edu – were all made nearly a decade ago.
What about NOW?
What the fuck is Edu up to….?
Apparently we have now removed our interest in Caicedo….?
How the actual fuck are we supposed to challenge next year in the ECL and the EPL?
Kai fucking Havertz…?
😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 😂
Ramsdale, White, Tomiyasu, Odegaard. Gabriel Jesus, Zinchenko, Trossard. None were “statement” signings. Unless transforming your team is a statement.
I’m talking about marquee signings…hello?
Eat more carrots.
Sounds like your main mistake has been putting any trust in ‘all of the stories’ it’s (more) bullshit season in football media.
Yup. You’re almost definitely right!
I have four dogs and when one of them barks, it quickly spreads throughout the others. Before you know it, they are all going mental at a perceived threat that probably doesn’t exist.
Transfer stories often seem real because lots of people report them. But if the original information is bogus then it’s all bogus.
Does each dog have four hats like their master as well? If so that’s a lot of hats.
Perhaps the real question is “Does he actually wear dogs as hats?” Are we supposed to believe 4 is a coincidence?
If someone puts their house up for sale for £500,000, you don’t just pay that amount, regardless of your conversation with them – odd to leak it though guess it works in Wet Spams favour
Yeah, but if a house costs £500,000 and you chat to the owners and they say they’ll accept £485,000 then it’s pretty pointless to offer £450,000.
It really isn’t, you’d probably get it for £460,000, most bids eventually meet somewhere in the middle. It also depends how much the player wants a specific club, unless they’re bullied and intimidated like Mudryk was.
Don’t know where you live, but I’m the current housing market pretty much every house goes over asking. Not the best analogy.
Not my analogy, my point still stands, most negotiations end up somewhere in the middle.
Have you purchased a house? Is that how it went?
If they say they will accept 485 k, you don’t offer 485k straight off.
Depends if you’ve got Pep Guardiola on the phone to the estate agent.
In which case the house of your dreams has GONE.
Anything more than £100,000 and the sanctimonious misers on this thread would go into meltdown.
Dude – you need to calm down a bit. Having a first bid rejected is par for the course.
I swear qwaliteee is Gelion from the Guardian BTL section.
You’d be lucky to get a cardboard box on the Victoria Embankment if it was down to this lot….
In fact, we were having detailed discussions with a player we are confident of signing. He has one year left on his contract and has refused to sign a new one; West Ham can sell him now or force him to stay one more year when he can leave for free. That makes no sense for anyone, but West Ham must keep this threat in reserve or they have no bargaining power whatsoever. This is especially true if, as I think is the case, there is little or no chance that any other team’s higher offer would be agreed to… Read more »
Presumably there’s nothing to stop them from talking to the other club in that time?
Fair enough we don’t understand the process as lay-people, and fair enough we might be oversimplifying things, but why is it that other deals can be agreed by clubs before transfer windows open (Jude Bellingham and Joao Mario as two recent examples, Cody Gakpo as one from the previous window), yet Arsenal don’t submit bids until the transfer windows actually open (see Rice this window and Mudryk the last)?
Yet…..
Seriously, bid the stated amount. GTF on with it. Stan will be ok without that illusive 47th ivory back scratcher.
Fingers crossed you aren’t head of the clubs finances
Oh yeah, thank the gods we have billionaires at the head of football and world finances, they’re crushing it… Well for themselves anyway…
Yeah. Heaven forbid we strengthen the squad with world class talent.
Mate, how dare you suggest we pay market forces?
Turn away from the evils of paying £20m extra, Don your hair shirt and repeatedly swear blind that this world class talent isn’t worth it to make yourself feel better.
We have Xhaka departing, an injured Elneny and Sambi Lokonga.
Go out into the sunshine.
Everything is fine.
I think it’s more of our club speaking with the player and players representatives. No reason to speak with the club unless you work things out with the player first.
I think it’s more you living in denial that this club couldn’t bid it’s way out of a paper bag.
£100’000’001
The next time I see this joke, or a “praise Jesus” type joke, I’m going to jump off a cliff
Hallelujah
Go on then
J, good article, I think their are a lot of people in the media, not all, but some, who are hoping Arsenal over spend on players, so that they have little budget left to build in key areas. For example, I heard that Arsenal made an unwelcome bid of £52 million for Rice and That Westham was hoping for nearer £75 million, which was the figure quoted last year, when he had 2 years remaining on his contract. Some media, but not all, are trying to convince the world that the figure being renegotiated is £100 million, due to a… Read more »
Your sources are wrong, bro 🌝
Ah great thanks daveg, we’ll all just go ahead and ignore Ornstein and his proven track record of transfer insight and tuck into this delicious word salad you’ve prepared for us instead. I see you’ve arbitrarily sprinkled some numbers in there too, very nice.
I’m so fucking depressing but the feeling is that this deal is fucked. To much Mydryk over it.
Hmm I’m not so sure. Genuinely think Rice wants in on Super Miks project. City entering the race would be a problem but sounds like guff to me.
“Genuinely think Rice wants in on Super Mik’s project” – my guy if “wanting in” was enough to seal a deal then Mudryk would be playing in the Champions League next season. We can curry favour with Rice all we want but money talks loudest, and if City gazump us then that’s likely where he’s going.
If that were the only consideration, everyone would be in the Saudi league next year.
You don’t have enough information to make any determination either way. None of us do.
We have a track record though with trying to sign the very top marquee players – and it ain’t impressive.
Bit early to say. I hope I am wrong but I don’t arsenal are or ever will be ready to sign players at this level. Rich clubs will simply wait to see what we offer and outbid us at the last moment to add to their pokemon collection of football stars.
You get to the point where you have to wonder if he is really worth the money.
If money is no object (as it is for City) that’s one thing, but some of the figures quoted (ie 120m) seem pretty unreasonable. We could do a lot with that.
Who would you sign then?
And don’t say Caicedo; Arteta wants him IN ADDITION to Declan Rice.
I dunno I’m not a football scout.
Our entire forward line cost less than that and it rocks.
Caicedo
According to AFTV Arsenal have withdrawn their interest in Caicedo.
Next……..
You are wrong. Hope that helps you feel better.
Relax, go for a walk in the woods, watch a babbling brook, the window is always the same and worrying about things beyond your control is a pointless waste of emotional energy. Arsenal will get Rice, unless he joins City which would mean he’s not an Arsenal player and he wouldn’t fit our project. If Arteta wants a player and the player wants Arsenal, we get the player. Mudryk special case due to the war. Breathe.
Mudryk was eventually signed by Chelsea because we went in with two pathetic low ball bids that Shakhtar Donetsk probably thought Edu got out of a Christmas Cracker.
Mate you need to lay off the drink for a bit. As soon as you’ve had a couple you start flip flopping your outraged opinion every time you see a new tweet tagged @arsenal. Breathe.
Just cough up the fucking £18m difference and stop pissing about.
Fucking low balling YET AGAIN.
And now, surprise surprise, City are beginning to sniff around.
We never learn. We never ever fucking learn.
Quit sodding about penny pinching, Arsenal – THE MONEY IS THERE.
JUST DO IT.
Calm down. Just part of negotiations.
No, no, no @Qwaliteee. We must “balance the finances”. How dare you suggest our multi-billionaire spend but one dollar extra of his hard-earned, ethical, just dollars. If not surely we’d just be punished under FFP! Right…right!?
How much cocaine have you had today? Absolutely raging it on here
Mate, before you start casting aspersions about class A drugs on me, check out the rest of this thread and have a look at those earnest clowns caught up in a comedic war of communism v capitalism – because Arsenal have lowballed West Ham and wimped out of signing Caicedo.
Rice is overpriced
And who would you bring in instead?
Think of the nectar points though…
Heeeere we go…second offer will take 2 weeks to put together. Get rebuffed. City will match the asking price. Rice will go to City (or Chelsea). I am no expert in how transfers work but would it be fair to assume that Arsenal feel out what West Ham are willing to accept before they make an offer, knowing full well that any offer which gets rejected will be immediately in the public domain?
We never ever learn.
If this goes tits up, then Edu and Garlick will have some explaining to do to Arteta.
What is the fucking point of Arteta identifying who he wants and Josh putting up the money, only for Edu to start pratting about and low balling yet again………….?
Why the fuck would he go to Chelsea? To listen to Mudryk’s hard luck story?
He’ll go anywhere but there. Even staying another year at West Ham, a well run club who wins things, is preferable to the Chelsea Shit Show.
Money. It doesn’t matter how many nice conversations Rice has had with Edu, Mikel, etc. He will go to the highest bidder. Because that is how football works. Also his agent is a Chelsea season ticket holder.
Something tells me that last season’s car crash will find it hard to compete for the top talent regardless how much money they throw at it this time. Don’t forget that players also want to win trophies.
You’d like to think so. I guess I am just a little cynical when it comes to footballers motivations.
Footballers motivations were corrupted by greedy agents and owners decades ago. Most still want to win football, but when you get to head home and roll around in piles of money not matter winning or losing it’s not quite as important as it used to be.
When you can’t offer CL you need to pay more in terms of wages,
Well if some “experts” here insist that Rice would go to Chelsea for more money then more fool him if he did. Personally I couldn’t care less as I’m sure Edu would find something else decent enough to fill that spot.
serious?
so let him go and eat the money…
Adding to that point, let him put the extra pound notes in his empty trophy cabinet when his 8 year contract expires.
Yeah, except that according to David Sullivan, Rice turned down a huge wage increase to 200,000 a week that meant he left 10 million pounds on the table over the past 18 months. (If my arithmetic skills are reliable, I think this means he is currently on about 75,000 a week.)
Arsenal don’t want to overpay and West Ham don’t want to leave money on the table. Process is fairly standard so far. If Rice doesn’t come, we move on Caceido, we aren’t getting them both.
We have withdrawn out of the race for Caicedo.
All the fun of the fair with Edu and Garlick.
Rice is not worth 100million. And Caicedo is better than him. We should buy him instead.
Arteta wants both.
Everyone knows that – except you, apparently.
It strengthens our hand to say we want either Rice or Caicedo. If we really want both, you need to get them at the same time. Otherwise when you announce Rice, Brighton will say Caicedo costs more. Or viceversa. Others may argue that if we get Rice, we can tell Brighton we don’t need Caicedo that much as we’ve got already Rice. I personally don’t think we will get both
No one knows anything, especially you, that is quite apparent.
We have pulled out of the race for Caicedo and Man City will table a bid for Rice in the next 24 hrs.
WAKE UP.
Cue a load of moaners high on “Ohmahgawd we’re such penny pinchers, Arteta out” and then that fun guy who posts about how he hates rich people all the time.
Then later we land Rice or some other great player.
Everyone who says they hate rich people is an outrageous hypocrite. I am not saying that mega wealthy people aren’t often awful…I am just saying that if someone who says they hate rich people is given the opportunity to be rich themselves, they are hardly going to say ‘no thanks’.
Obviously but you can be rich and still be a good person.
When you get to the point where you are prepared to push other people into poverty and destitution or deprive them of basic essentials like healthcare when you already have far more money than you could ever realistically need you probably need to think about what kind of person that makes you.
Agreed.
I agree and I’d like to add to your point, Chelsea asking 70 million for Havertz are having a laugh. He’s a 40 million quid player tops!
No thanks. I’ve rebuffed offers to earn much in industry but it would have been selling my soul and contributing to us crushing the planet we live in. Not everyone is a greedy pig, some people genuinely want to live in a healthier way, on a healthier planet. In the famous words of John McClane, Kumbaya MF…
Exactly! There are those of us who look at what we have and can say it’s enough, I don’t need to sell my soul or humiliate myself or suffer for a bit more.
I walked away from a career a few years ago when my work place became awful. I did so knowing I’d be on a lot less money and I’m yet to regret it. Too many people think it’s all about money. It really isn’t.
FYI: Communism is a major ideology, central to 20th century history, that rejects being rich.
A major ideology marked by two major traits, inequality and genocide.
Your surface level criticism of communism here is as influenced by capitalist indoctrination as it is shallow.
I suppose you’re right, it wasn’t all mass murder and inequality. There was corruption, work camps, no freedom of speech, severe restriction of free movement and imperialist wars too.
… all things we don‘t know in capitalism! 🤣🤣🤣
Don’t think the soviet union ever really had communism.
Was just another way for evil men to gain support so they could put themselves into power and stay there (like a lot of things).
And the other countries who suffered under it? Did they not have communism either? Or is it just a rubbish excuse for what is and will always be a horribly oppressive and blood thirsty ideology? How many million murders will it take for some people to wake up?
How many million murders and social repressions and environmental destruction will it take for some to wake up on capitalism? It’s broken and it’s broken the humanity and the world. Nobody is calling for Soviet style dictatorships. But more equitable economies that don’t allow billionaires through exponentially increasing taxation with increasing wealth – hell yeah. A system where failing fossil fuels profits aren’t artificially propped up by tax payers – hand outs to the rich – hell yeah. Things can be much different and better, but you make it a nonsense binary argument that it’s the great capitalism Vs the… Read more »
I haven’t said a word in defence of capitalism. It wasn’t me who brought up communism either. I am however disgusted that there are people here actually defending that murderous ideology. Like spewing the old magical thinking trope of “oh THAT wasn’t communism” for example.
Don’t they reckon that 10% wealthiest contribute to 80% global warming etc?
You need to look up communism. It has nothing to do with dictators, death camps or restricting freedom of speech. That’s just what you get when you have a lunatic like Hitler or Stalin in control.
Not saying I think it’s a good idea, it sounds good on paper
OK, “communism has nothing to do with oppression. Except for Stalin it was one endless love-in.”.
That’s my guffaw of the week taken care of. Thank you very much.
Pol Pot and Chairman Mao with Marxist -Leninist ideology. Collective farming at its best!
what about a few millions of slaves sold by colonialist-communists…
“Don’t think the soviet union ever really had communism.”
Don’t think Nazi Germany ever really had national socialism too?
Socialism had nothing to do with the Nazis. They included the word (along with nationalist) as propaganda to attract people from different political interests to their cause. Their roots are far right, basically fascist.
And first price for missing my point entirely goes to you. Collect your prize at the nearest breadline. Don’t forget to bring your string bag.
How can you expect anyone else to understand the points you’re trying to make here, when it looks pretty clear you don’t understand them.
I understand the logic behind the excuse that “such and such was/is worse so communism was not so bad”, but it’s an apologist falsehood that lets a heinous ideology off the hook. It’s no less outrageous than anyone trying to excuse the holocaust.
No, mate. No one is saying that. People are saying a better system can be made than either. A more equitable system, but instead we laud and praise the elites and blame their stooge politicians and anyone that looks different and has a difference of opinion for all our problems. Hence, nothing changes. So, again it is your own reductionist view that is missing the point…badly.
And here’s a quote from you saying just that.
“Inequality and genocide? Das kapital meine fruende (Many many many times over).”
And what part of that is wrong? Exploitation of people, mineral, fossil fuel, agricultural resources in Africa, South America, Asia by colonial, capitalist governments and Western corporations has lead to genocides, wars, and environmental catastrophes… Many, many times over. Learn some history man. Or do you deny that? No one here has denied Stalin was an evil murderous dictator, but you seem to have a lot of trouble acknowledging the mass social and environmental destruction laid to waste by capitalist greed.
Marxism is great but people are crap.
‘What we call communism is not a state of affairs to be achieved, an ideal according to which reality will have to adjust itself. Rather it is the real movement that abolishes the state of things’
Said some rich guy whose wild ideas went on to inspire mass murder and suffering on a massive scale long after he’d finished living his life of privilege.
Inequality and genocide? Das kapital meine fruende (Many many many times over).