Ornstein update: Lucas Torreira and Jaeson Rosenfeld

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Further to our transcript of David Ornstein on the BBC last night, we missed a couple of little snippets in the original piece.

Here’s what he had to say about:

Lucas Torreira

“There’s one other potential generator of income and that’s been talked about online and in Italy a lot: that’s Lucas Torreira.

“He’s only a year into his stay. Suggestions he might be back to Italy with AC Milan. We’re told contrary to some reports, is not unhappy and Arsenal have no desire to sell him, although every player has their price.

“Milan who he’s been heavily linked with are keen on him, but they are not pursuing him because they have other targets.”

Torreira yesterday dismissed rumours saying he’d heard nothing from AC Milan and was happy at Arsenal.

Jaeson Rosenfeld

“There’s a key person I didn’t mention [in the recruitment process], and that’s Jason Rosenfeld who is based in the United States. He’s very big on statistics, so he runs the numbers on these players and I was told on Zaha there were differences of opinion on his physical stats.

“Different people had different opinions, so how are you going to find a consensus before you even go and begin to negotiate for a player?”

Jason Rosenfeld is the founder of StatDNA, the company that Arsenal bought in 2014 to improve the analytical side of the club. Many associate it with some of the iffy signings in recent years, including Gabriel, Mohamed Elneny and Shkodran Mustafi, but it’s also used to provide data to the coaching staff regarding our player performance, the opposition and more.

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Henkamp
Henkamp

I am beginning to wonder, has Jason Rosenfield or Rosenpark ran the rule over a certain Hakim Ziyech? Because I am beginning to wonder why we are not seriously after him. He can play on the right, left or behind the striker in attack.

The business so far (or lack of) has me wondering whether anything has really changed since the last regime.

Rich
Rich

Emery has said that technique without physicality in the PL isn’t of much use, and the reason the PL dominated Europe last season was it’s physical level being way above any other European league.

Arsenal fans (me included) were always perplexed why Arsenal moved away from a side of 6ft+ aggressive athletes, to a team of technically gifted lightweights.

We need PL players, we’ve seen with the likes of Ozil + Di Maria that players who don’t fancy it, get eaten up in this league, regardless of how good they are on a technical level.

I’d prefer we moved for a couple of very fast and very aggressive wingers who can run all day, put in a decent cross, and can put the ball in the back of the net.

I really like Iwobi, and think he’s a better player than he gets credit for, but he fades in games and his stamina looks poor.

Emery has said he needs real investment in the defence, and he needs wingers, and has also stated about the types of characteristics he needs.

If the club don’t back him this summer? Then the blame will clearly lie at the door of the Kroenke’s.

But Emery will be the fall guy… and I believe he’ll be out of a job by January, with us getting our worst place finish for over 25 years.

We need a huge clear-out, but the wages we’re paying will make that very difficult, we need investment, but prices are so overinflated, it makes doing the type of business we need to do likely impossible.

Rabona Panenka
Rabona Panenka

The 1st part of this comment actually puts alot into perspective. We dominated the PL in the late 80s and 90s with a physical squad that were always up for a fight (hence the 1-0 to the Arsenal trend we set at the time).

Following that we went into the 2000’s with a ‘physical spine’ and a touch of class (recipe for success in the PL).

Since then we’ve lost our physicality with Wenger leading more to technical players to control the game with possession which at the time was lauded by some as we were even then compared to Barca and their tikki-takka game play (without all the trophies).

Leicester showed that PL keeps evolving hence their success with their counter attacking philosophy that worked so well, though they also had a physical spine to rely on when things got tough.

Currently Spurs and Pool both have this physicality about them and yes that’s why they have been doing so well, yet they don’t really have much technically gifted players.

So even though with our love for classy players that are technical, that can wow the emirates crowd with intricate passing, and as much as i’d like to see Ziyech or Carrasco play for us, im starting to understand the approach for Zaha.

Although underwhelming, he will bring an element of physicality that we so badly need.

A Different George
A Different George

We dominated in the PL in the late 80’s and 90’s? We won in 1989, of course, and again in 1991 (before the creation of the Premier League, but leave that aside), but we were not even in the top three any other year from 1981 through 1997.

Futsboller
Futsboller

Some elements of this don’t make sense: is Manchester City loaded with “6ft+ aggressive athletes” or does that descriptor sound more like Cardiff City? The game has changed in England from what it was in the 90s, and Arsenal helped to change it — for the better. Emery made us more physical last season, and we ran more than we ever have, I think, but it didn’t add up to much in the end – no trophies, no CL football, no sense of identity. Emery could use some help through the transfer market, but he came to a sinking ship without any illusions and knows he might well have to patch it up and get it ready for battle with the hands on deck. If he gets sacked, it’s not because he didn’t get a transfer or two.

Some elements make complete sense — like the last sentence, which captures the rock and the hard place we’ve nestled ourselves into quite uncomfortably, perfectly. We’ve got an awful lot of work to do, and the people throughout the club getting paid the big bucks better start earning it.

Rich
Rich

Very few clubs have the luxury afforded to Guardiola at Man City.

He inherited the most expensively assembled squad in history, had months to plan his entrance, and choose £200 million worth of talent in his first window.

He then finished pot less and fourth.

He then spent another £180 million

Then another €65 million in the January, in order to win the title.

If Guardiola was in charge of our mess? With our budget? Then he’d have quit a long time ago….

It’s taken Klopp a while to get Liverpool going, only 18 months ago people were spewing the line that he couldn’t organise a defence, and he was a finalist bottler….

Klopp has said that he doesn’t have the luxury to play like City, so he’s put together a team of athletic grafters who tend to have the endurance to stay fit, and repeat their physical output time+again

Emery is going to need to follow a similar route to Klopp, not Guardiola, as he’s never going to be afforded such a luxury.

Emery seems to see’s a team as more mechanical, with each component performing a specific task to make the engine purr.

And when he identifies we needs width, more physicality, and investment in our defence, it’s hard to to come to the conclusion he’s spot on about our requirements.

If we change Emery without tending to those requirements? Then the new manager will face exactly the same dilemma as the old one.

Futsboller
Futsboller

Nobody can afford to play like City these days; they are in their own league. Klopp assembled a great squad, and spent a large chunk of change doing it (Mane, Firmino, Salah, Ox, Lallana, Fabinho, Keita, Van Dijk, and Allison were not cheap transfers, if I remember correctly). We aren’t in that position, and won’t be for a few years. The reality at Arsenal is that we are going to have to work harder, from top to bottom, with what we’ve got. We have great athletes on our side, and just need to figure out how to get the best out of them every single week. Other managers seem to inspire that week after week. That’s Emery’s job now.

Aside from that, what Emery identifies as deficient in our side is not necessarily the same as what the next coach might view as in need of shoring up at Arsenal — every manager is different.

WalkTheTalk
WalkTheTalk

Not just Ziyech. There’s whole line of players that can definitely be signed by arsenal. Leon Bailey and Neres come to my mind just to name a few. The problem is with the manner in which the club has been handling their business on and off the pitch for years now. It’s is the indecisive over complicating approach to all matters.

sambo
sambo

The transfer window in Europe doesn’t open until july 1st so I’m not sure what you are expecting lol.

Boom Xhaka Laca
Boom Xhaka Laca

StatDNA: *monitors our players’ performance levels since 2014*

StatDNA: “Kill… me… “

Jarghs
Jarghs

StatDna: becomes sentient
StatDna: joins Juventus on a free

Petit's Handbag
Petit's Handbag

Top work from all involved 😂

Faisal Narrage aka Mr. Project Youth 2.0

Now this comment deserves all the thumbs up in the world.

Richie

StatDNA says – Sell Serge Gnabry and buy Takuma Asano.

loose_cannon
loose_cannon

StatDNA: “What is my purpose?”

Arsenal: “To monitor Mustafi and Xhaka’s progress”

StatDNA: *Pauses*

StatDNA: “…Oh…my…God….!”

Arsenal: “Yeah, join the club pal.”

Faisal Narrage aka Mr. Project Youth 2.0

The iffy association with StatsDNA is quite telling; nobody associates them with the good players; the Torreiras and Guendouzis of this world, even though you can be turned they were involved. Instead they associate them with the dregs; the Elnenys, Xhakas amen Mustafis of this world. Yet if one is being honest, it always depends on how the data is used.

There’s no denying Gabriel, Elneny, Xhaka and Mustafi all bear striking resemblance to previous Wenger players; Vermealen and Denilsons of this world, players who are first and foremost bought for their skills on the ball, rather than their defensive or athletic ability. Those are Wenger type players, so it just seems statsDNA’s premise was to find the best type of Wenger players, rather than leading with data to begin with.

And if this guy isn’t a fan of Zaha based on the data and value for money, then I’m all for it.

catbiscuits
catbiscuits

Gabriel and Elneny were bought for their skills on the ball!?

Faisal Narrage aka Mr. Project Youth 2.0

Well yes.
Rather than Ben obtuse, have a look at it.
There’s all these other metrics that are beyond just passing completion, final balls and vertical passes that take people out etc.

My point is there is still a general attitudes towards data science in football as “laptop gurus”, which is scene in the references to StatDNA which almost always gets associated with our failures and nevertheless with our successes

There was a massive uproar when Liverpool went a “data first” route and pundits and journalists mocked them for their “laptop guru”.
5 years later, no one isn’t laughing now. There’s an article on ESPN an New York Times in Liverpool’s scouting recruitment detailing it.

My point is rather than mocking them, we should join them. Rather than using data to inform player stats identified, maybe we should use it like Liverpool do and lead the way with it.

Dammit where’s Elliot aka YankeeGooner when you need him?

Make Arsenal Great Again
Make Arsenal Great Again

What exactly is a Wenger type player? You mean Henry, Vieira, Cesc, Nasri, RVP, Koscienly, kolo, Santi, Rosicky, Freddie, Pires, Kanu, Lauren. Those are Wenger type players to me. It is easy to cherry pick on a few bad players when the man recruited well over a hundred players to this club.

Vonnie
Vonnie

Those were early Wenger. The players he bought over the last three years were not in the same league. And if if hadn’t been for Mertesacker, Arteta and Kos busting a gut for us we would have been out of the top four a lot earlier. Wenger went steadily downhill and Kronke senior should have halted the decline much earlier.

Papa Large, big shot in North London
Papa Large, big shot in North London

Who ever signed those three is a genius.

Faisal Narrage aka Mr. Project Youth 2.0
Faisal Narrage aka Mr. Project Youth 2.0

I think this is where us Arsenal fans can try to be obtuse.
There’s this idea that to criticise anything Wenger did is an attack on the man, as if this same place weren’t filled with vitrol for Wenger out for so long.
It’s clear that Post-Invincibles he favoured a particular type of player, and I can’t understand why it’s not fashionable to deny that. The days of Campbell were gone, he favoured smaller faster and more technical CBs on the ball. Let’ not forget he didn’t even want Per for many years, only until the infamous trolley dash. Gallas, Vermaelen, Kos (the best), Mustafi, Gabriel, etc. were all obviously of a particular style.

And now people are denying Wenger’s reluctance to getting a “Proper DM” for many years post-invincibles, as if this same place wasn’t full of it.

Well here’s one thing that’s gonna bring about loads of downvotes but here it goes….

99% of people on this site a decade ago where all pro Kroenke, particularly over Usmanov, because apparently back then we all didn’t want to be an oil baron’s plaything, and many wanted Stan BECAUSE he wouldn’t get involved in our running and putting money in.

You would never think that was the case reading the site now and people pretending that’s what they wanted (and now have got), particularly over Usmanov.

Lots of revisionism seems to go on amongst football fans.

Awesomesauce25
Awesomesauce25

Being Kroenke over Usmanov is not the same as being pro Kroenke. Lesser of two evils id say. Also its interesting you noted the difference in players early Wenger vs last 3 years Wenger which coincided with… Kroenke involvement… However, im fairly certain the need to sell players to pay stadium debt was the largest impact to our player recruitment pre Kroenke. But the stadium move was necessary if we wanted to compete amongst the top clubs in Europe in the future.

Homer
Homer

Great post.
Though you left out Laca. Total AW kind a player.
As well Sagna, Clichy, and Diaby. And Aaron Ramsey. And RVP. And Edwardo (the Braziloation one.) (yes, yes; some still have a butt hurt how they left, but they were (are) brilliant footballers.)

Limey
Limey

Xhaka was a Systems signing too.

Limey
Limey

I mean was a a Statdna signing.Sorry

Rich
Rich

Xhaka is decent enough, he’s got a good amount of experience now, and is heading into his prime.

He has concentration issues, but he’s far from our biggest problem, if we got £50 million for him? We’d need to replace him, which would likely cost a lot of money.

Sorting out 2 full backs, at least 1 established centre half, and at least one, but ideally 2 wide players should be where our priorities lie.

Futsboller
Futsboller

If we don’t get the wide players, which does not appear likely, could you see Iwobi and Nelson, and possibly Maitland-Niles (if we haven’t already consigned him to right-back), as guys that could do the job?

Homer
Homer

This.

Dave
Dave

How many goals per season do we concede due to concentration issues?

It’s a big deal.

Martin
Martin

Which proves it can be good. One of the best passing ranges of any player in the country and a key player which is why Emery never drops him

Q3 Technique
Q3 Technique

Here’s a new thought for people to distract from the endless transfer rumours…

Having players like Ramsey (£5m, 11 seasons) and Welbeck (£16m, 5 seasons) leave for nothing should not substantively negatively affect a club like Arsenal. They were not massive purchases, stayed for the full length of their contracts, and were often on relatively low wages towards the end of their contracts.

It obviously leaves us with less money than we could have, but shouldn’t result in us with the little that we have!

Another way to look at it is why does one of the richest clubs in the world need to sell the players they buy in order to ensure they have sufficient money to replace them? Isn’t this is a trait associated with smaller clubs? Surely we should be able to buy a player for £5m keep him for 11 productive seasons, let him leave for free, and have ample resources to replace him?

Just a thought to distract you from yet another random player linked to arsenal through a random website who’s source is a random tweet from a random person….

Kentmonkey
Kentmonkey

We’re not trying to recoup £5m though, we’re trying to replace a £60m player.

If Ramsey had not processed and had remained a £5m level player that above model/description works. But he did. Massively.

Added to that the fact we have made an absolute shower of how we’ve managed decent player exits, such as sneezy etc., The deficit of players coming in and going out widens.

And we’re fully committed to the self sustaining model. Which requires great player investment, but even more so even better negotiations when players are leaving.

DDK3
DDK3

I agree, if we could get Rabiot on a free then no problem. We have the 5m we need for the next Ramsey, what we don’t have is the 60m we need for a current Ramsey, and unfortunately Arsenal is not as an attractive option as back when Ramsey signed for us.

DDK3
DDK3

Furthermore, the spuds net spend has been about a quarter of ours over the last 5 seasons. Yet, they are comprehensively out performing us. Our issues stretch well beyond our budget.

If one considers what they spent on Kane, Alli, Walker, Trippier, Dier, Eriksen, Son, Lloris (the list goes on) vs what they are worth today, then their transfer strategy is vastly superior.

They sit with cheap players that are performing well that are worth a lot and that they don’t want to or need to sell, whilst we sit with expensive players that cost a lot that aren’t performing well and that we would struggle to sell.

I believe that transfers like Guendouzi, Torreira and (hopefully) Tierney would be steps in the right direction, as I expect us to get good performances as well as resale out of them. I hope to see that trend continue as the likes of Mustaphi, Ozil, Mkhi and Xhaka are holding us back at the moment by seriously limiting our options. But as we gradually get them off of our books we can start to build a club that we can be proud of again.

Getting into CL next season really is a must for us, our new signings would be more inclined to want to stay and we would become a more attractive option for new signings along with the larger budget obviously.

The one benefit might be that we would be forced to give some of our youngsters a try and hopefully someone will emerge as the next Ramsey/Fabregas/Nasri. Fingers crossed

Futsboller
Futsboller

Well said. And I think it is becoming clear that the ruins of the old regime are going to take more than a few years to rebuild — and perhaps our best way, and only way, to do that is by buying cheap, young players, and developing them into assets on and off the pitch. (Whether we have the right people in place to do this is another question, and a deep concern.) We really do need CL football, and it remains the goal each season, but more important is refashioning our identity on the pitch — we need to get a firm sense of identity and style of play, one that everyone can believe in and that makes us competitive week in and week out. That is the platform. Everything else follows.

Cyprus The Immortal Gooner
Cyprus The Immortal Gooner

So you are happy with Ramsey leaving for free because we bought him for 5m 11 years earlier???

Shmokin'em
Shmokin'em

He clearly didn’t say that. Kids ey

Cyprus The Immortal Gooner
Cyprus The Immortal Gooner

Not happy but “content” then? He describes an “ideal” environment where a player we bought for 5m and served us for 11 years shouldn’t impact our resources. In the harsh Arsenal reality though, this is the exact opposite of what is happening. The transfer policy of the last 5 years has left us in shambles and we’re at a position where Zaha wants to join and Arsenal Football Club cannot afford him…

mc1892
mc1892

I mean the model would work perfectly if every year you bought a batch of these £5m 18 year olds who progress to elite level over the course of a decade so you have a continually refreshing stock but it’s not really feasible.

Homer
Homer

You lost the debate, lad. Let it go.

All this Zaha fervor. Its a total joke.
The guy is second rate. Not better than Laca. Not better than Auba.

Drogheda Gunner
Drogheda Gunner

But Zaha is not a striker, he is a winger that we badly need, all we have at the moment is a piss poor iwobi and a big prospect in Nelson for wing

Cyprus The Immortal Gooner
Cyprus The Immortal Gooner

So you compare a winger with Laca & Auba and you are telling me that I lost the debate?? Come on lad…

Dave
Dave

If you are happy for Ramsey to be replaced by a 5m player, and Welbeck a 16m player, then yes, it’s fine for them to go on a free.

gunnerfrog
gunnerfrog

How do mid-table clubs have more budget than us? Oh, how my heart longs for Stan Kroenke to fall to his death in a crocodile-infested swamp during one of his dubious hunting trips… Better yet, how joy would flood my heart if an international revolution got rid of the billionaire class that is shitting on everything we love and then selling it back to us.

BINBIN
BINBIN

It’s spelled Jaeson fyi

Anonymarse
Anonymarse

No surely that’s wrong

BINBIN
BINBIN

check the source: google.co.uk

Anonymarse
Anonymarse

Sorry that was a failed attempt at humour

Public Elneny Number One
Public Elneny Number One

ShatDNA

Jarghs
Jarghs

(transfer) Windows 95.
If only that shitty little paperclip thingy could help us sign a few players.

“I see you’re trying to compete in the Premier League with a Championship budget, may I suggest a billionaire sports tycoon owner?”

BuckThirsty
BuckThirsty

Can we use StatDNA to find a Barça DNA?

Carlos _ Santana
Carlos _ Santana

Don’t worry guys it’s all just a ruse, we’ve got 200 mil in the bank ready to blow 👌

Anonymarse
Anonymarse

Probably true actually, just unwilling to spend it

goonero
goonero

StatDNA had Arsene Wenger believing Granit Xhaka was a box-to-box midfielder he could convert into a DM. They are the askjeeves of the football stats world; they won’t give you any information you’re not better served getting elsewhere.

Cultured determination
Cultured determination

We can generate income by selling statsDNA.

ozenal
ozenal

Makes me wonder about the success of statdna, as we made some of the worst transfer and contract decisions in the last 4 years.

Is it because it made directly incorrect decisions, or caused indecisiveness and incoherent transfer strategy.

It really went to sht when Wenger signed his final contract with reduced power and we got some real mixed strategies which coincided with Mislintat leaving.

Santori
Santori

I can’t see the benefit of us trying to generate income from selling one of our better assets in midfield.

BC we will have to then add two to recover the same capacity since we are short on one as is beyond Torreira, Granit and Guendouzi.

Willock needs to go on loan to play regularly and accelerate his development. Elneny is a mediocre player we need to put in a suitcase and drop off (anywhere)

We will need to retain Torrerira AND add one more if we have any ambition whatsoever. Otherwise it isn’t improvement, it is moving sideways.

If we need to generate income, we need to be flexible.

If Ozil is prohibitive likely bc of his salary, we should expect to retain him and use him to the best of his abilities without compromise to tactical dictates.

BUT Mhkitaryan should also be on the sales list. He represents a far more attractive option for clubs needing an experienced playmaker.

Firstly there is less pressure on us to recoup on residual transfer value since we got him on a free swap (whether that was the best move for usin terms of tacticalneed of the squad then is a different issue)

Secondly his salary (I believe 120K) is much lower than Ozil but still represents substantial savings on wage structure (albeit we have some wiggle room with Cech, Ramsey, Welbeck, Lichsteiner and possible Koscielny gone)

The same can be said at Cback where Chambers is still hovering between use and redundancy. Should he feel his future lays elsewhere he could generate some money for us on account of a decent (versatile) showing at Fulham on loan and his local content.

He would certainly be an alternative sales prospect to Mustafi who again may be more prohibitive due to wages he is on. And BOTH IMO will generate similar income for us say 15-22m.

I would expect the transfer team will have options beyond simply flogging off certain players and have no need to recourse to hollowing out our capabilities in midfield.

BC that will further complicate a rebuild. As is we need one more capable CM.

We don’t need to have to worry or gamble in adding two.

The other thing is if we should have to face replacing more numbers, then the Transfer team may be tempted to dilute effort.

I can’t see the merit in that bc we don’t lack numbers, we lack capabilities.

Santori
Santori

…another stat obsessed American. How they lost the Vietnam war.

loose_cannon
loose_cannon

Trust Gazidis to go for a player he has no chance of signing and doesn’t even want to leave. Apparently he wants Lukaku on loan as well! Says a lot about our transfer policy during the Kronke years. Just what the hell has he been smoking??